Untitled project from SquadCast
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Introduction
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[00:00:04] Deborah Riemann: But by journaling, we actually move toward. Difficult emotions and we write about them, sharing those feelings with another person is a way to help release the pain and to reduce that pressure, that stress, that energy around grief. One of the things that many people find with grief is it's very isolating. So by participating in a community, it can feel less lonely. When you're dealing with grief. And so that is my vision for this group to be a community where people get support, they get to help process their emotions, they get to share them with someone, and that together we move forward through grief.
[00:00:54] James Marland: You have the wisdom to change lives. The problem is you're close to maxing out. [00:01:00] Giving all your time to others with burnout in your future.
[00:01:05] I'm here to help you design an income stream that truly leverages your wisdom. It starts when you stop chasing a full schedule and start scaling that wisdom into income without a ceiling. Now is the time to create more impact, more income, and more independence. I'm James Marland. Income Stream consultant and this is the Scaling Therapist podcast.
[00:01:37] Hello and welcome back to the Scaling Therapist Podcast. I'm your host, James Marland. This is the show where I help therapists turn their wisdom into additional streams of income. Today I am here with Deborah Reman. She is from stages. Of grief recovery.com. And she is a student of mine and she has some really [00:02:00] interesting holiday offers for people who are going through grief, and I just wanted to bring her on and talk about some of that, but also talk about her story and how she got here and some of the lessons and problems she's overcome as she creates her online content.
Meet Deborah Reman
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[00:02:16] James Marland: Deborah, welcome to the show.
[00:02:18] Deborah Riemann: Thanks James. It's good to be here.
[00:02:21] James Marland: Yeah. Yeah, you've been doing some really cool things. We'll get to that as we as we get in with the show. But I just wanted to learn a little bit more about you because I think there's many people in your situation who have an idea or they're a therapist and they're thinking. Maybe I could do more than therapy or add an additional stream of income, but then they just sit with the idea and then don't do anything about it.
[00:02:46] And you've actually taken steps to get outta your comfort zone and start using your material to help more people. So how about we start with who you are and what you do, and then we'll get into later into the story about some of this new stuff that you're working [00:03:00] on.
Deborah's Personal Grief Journey
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[00:03:00] Deborah Riemann: Sure. Well, I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist and I'm working in Michigan, but originally I was in graduate school working on my degree to become a licensed counselor when I experienced several losses myself. stepmom who raised me, died at 57 from colon cancer. My in-laws, who I had taken care of for 12 years, both passed away within a year of each other while I was in school. And I was keeping busy, which I thought was the way to handle grief and turned out is that my health started failing. When I finally went to the doctor said, don't go to the gym, don't exercise, because my adrenals were failing from the stress, and I had never heard a doctor say, don't go work out or don't exercise. So I knew that this was pretty serious, but in all of my training for becoming a professional mental health counselor. [00:04:00] I had not seen more than two paragraphs about dealing with grief, and I wondered, am I doing it right? Well, one day I was in a used bookstore in Santa Cruz, California that was near my school, a book jumped off the shelf into my hands talking about how to recover after loss, I knew it was what I needed.
[00:04:22] I didn't actually read the book, but I did go get some additional training and I felt a little tricked into it because I thought I was gonna learn how to help other people deal with grief. what actually ended up happening was I was helped to process my own grief and losses
[00:04:39] James Marland: So I'm wondering, do you think that's common, ~you know, ~for people to just go through life with blow after blow, grief after grief, and then how you dealt with it? I'm sure there's other ways that people deal with it, but it sounds like how you dealt with it is you just like. You distracted yourself with work, with school, with activity, and then it showed up in your health.
[00:04:59] Is that [00:05:00] common?
[00:05:01] Deborah Riemann: Sure. It ~actu ~actually happens a lot because we aren't really trained in our society about how to deal with grief. And so we cope the best we can and usually it's by trying to run somehow to outpace the feelings that
[00:05:16] James Marland: Yeah. ~Like. ~I'm just thinking about my family of origin and how we process grief. I think ~you, ~we had like a day and then you move on, like, it's like, okay, something bad happened just move on. Or from the religious background, just pray about it type of stuff. And yeah, ~it, ~the it sticks with you and hangs out.
[00:05:36] And for you, it showed up in your health. Right.
Cumulative Grief and Hidden Losses
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[00:05:39] Deborah Riemann: Yes. Well, one of the things that I learned was that I had a lot of cumulative grief, and for most adults when they have the big loss. often have like 20 other smaller losses that maybe haven't been fully processed. And for me it was things like in childhood my parents divorced and my [00:06:00] mother lived in a different state from me, or leaving high school and college and not really knowing how to stay connected with people. I had several moves away from family and friends and community. In 2008, I lost a home in the housing crash. And I was even kicked out of a church that I had served in for 12 years. So for me, grief wasn't just about the people who had died recently, but several other losses and including a big one for me was not having children of my own. And I hadn't even identified that as a loss until I went through that training. But I was able to process those things in a way that brought a lot of healing to me. And so I knew there was hope for the people I was gonna be serving as a counselor.
[00:06:50] James Marland: Great. That's ~a, ~that's an amazing story. And ~you ~sometimes the people who can help you the best are the ones who've gone through it. You know, the ones [00:07:00] who understand you and can show the way through that process. So ~you now ~you have all this knowledge and you've accumulated some history on grief.
[00:07:11] How. What happened next?
Building a Therapy Practice
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[00:07:14] Deborah Riemann: Sure. Well, as I finished graduate school, I was trying to learn all I could about marketing because I knew as a therapist I had to hit the ground running. I was living in the Bay Area and it's expensive to live there. ~so, but ~graduate school doesn't typically teach counselors how to market their practice. I was learning this on my own, and one of the things I learned was that I needed to pick a niche in order to define what type of problems that I helped people solve. And so since I was dealing a lot with grief and had gotten some training about this, and I thought, well, this is something that just about everyone will need at some point in their life.
[00:07:53] And so I built my website in 2009 of grief recovery.com [00:08:00] with that focus.
[00:08:02] James Marland: the marketing aspect, if you're going out on your own and you don't have an agency to sort of do some of that for you, what do you do? Like~ Like ~you, you built a webpage, you learned about it. ~But like ~how do that seems sort of, okay, I have this degree now what
[00:08:20] Deborah Riemann: Sure. And so much of graduate school is that focus of, oh, I get to hang out my shingle, but. I even found out that the nameplate that goes on my office was expensive. ~So,~
[00:08:31] James Marland: ~the, ~the, it's an expensive shingle.
Marketing Lessons: Done is Better Than Perfect
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[00:08:33] Deborah Riemann: yes. ~And so, ~the, the thing that I learned was that you don't really have much of a business until you can bring customers to that business.
[00:08:41] And I had a service that I was offering and I needed to let people know ~that, ~where to find me. And ~so ~that when people were looking online. For how to get help for their grief, would find that here's a counselor in their area that can help them. ~so ~one of the books that I read during that [00:09:00] time I don't actually remember the title, but it was a book by Don Kennedy on marketing, and I remember from the book he says, ugly sells
[00:09:09] And that if something's working, even though it's not perfect. That's good enough. ~And so ~I didn't worry too much about having a website that had all the bells and whistles that I could have paid a webmaster or a web designer, thousands of dollars for. I learned search engine optimization. I wrote articles for my website that used important keywords that my audience would be using to search.
[00:09:32] And I built a successful cash pay practice in California in 2013 because people were finding ~the webpage ~the website, and they were calling me. My phone
[00:09:43] James Marland: Hmm.
[00:09:43] Deborah Riemann: Ringing off the hook.
[00:09:45] James Marland: that's ~a, ~I think that's a really cool principle to camp out for a second here, where I think most of us are, have this image in our head of what we want to look like and how we wanna appear online. And [00:10:00] so we keep tweaking, like, we'll make a webpage or make some social posts or. Put together a webinar or something and then just tweak it and never release it because it's just not perfect.
[00:10:11] And ~that, ~that the whatever you're creating or whatever you're trying to do, it doesn't do anything until you release it. Like it doesn't impact anybody. Nobody can see it. Nobody can view it, people can't read it or watch it until you do something about it. So your webpage, you could have spent, you know, often people say, oh, I'll create a webpage or make this landing page in a day, and then it's not quite right.
[00:10:43] So you do it tomorrow and it's not quite right tomorrow, and then you work, then it's a month later and you still haven't released it. And what you did was you're like, well, I'm gonna do the best I can learn as I go and release it. That's just a really important [00:11:00] principle as you're doing new things is done, is better than perfect.
[00:11:04] And as you said the other side of that is ugly cells. Like, what there's a question here that I want to ask. What gave you the confidence to just put it out there instead of tweak endlessly?
[00:11:17] Deborah Riemann: It actually was desperation. I needed something that would not be expensive. I found a web building platform that taught you how to build a business.
[00:11:29] And so I went with that because ~I was, ~I knew I would have to do a lot of it myself. And so I was on that budget and I needed this to work without a lot of cash outlay to start.
[00:11:43] James Marland: And so you just,~ you just, ~you did it and you made it work
Moving and Rebuilding
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[00:11:46] Deborah Riemann: It
[00:11:46] James Marland: that,
[00:11:47] Deborah Riemann: later I maybe added a new design that I don't have the same design that I had in~ 23rd or ~2009.
[00:11:54] James Marland: yeah.
[00:11:55] Deborah Riemann: But even today, I've seen a lot prettier therapist websites than mine, [00:12:00] but I'm really proud of that work that I've put into it and it's working. since it's still bringing me clients I'm not, ~ you know, ~you know, looking to change it.
[00:12:08] James Marland: Yeah. ~If it's work, ~if it's working you don't need to change it but you also, you were telling me you moved too. Like that's a big transition. For therapists, especially if you're a local therapist, and I don't know if this was before telehealth or what, but ~you know, ~changing locations is very scary 'cause you lose a lot of your clients.
[00:12:29] So can you talk about that?
[00:12:31] Deborah Riemann: Yes. In 2015, just two years after building~ my, ~my first practice, I moved to Michigan to be near my family, and about a third of my clients stayed with me doing telehealth. And so when COVID hit in 2020, I was already accustomed to doing telehealth for many people. That was. A big move to their dining room table and work by video, but I'd already been doing that for several years. And [00:13:00] so I built my practice then again in Michigan after that move. And again, the website helped me. I had to make a few tweaks with where I was located and having some local pages, but it worked.
[00:13:12] James Marland: So ~what ~what was one of the promptings to start thinking, well, maybe there's more income stream I can have, or another revenue stream I can create that's sustainable beyond one-on-one therapy.
[00:13:24] What's that story?
From Therapist to Published Author
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[00:13:25] Deborah Riemann: Sure, well that doit myself website. helped a publisher find me and asked me to write a book. In 2021, this happened. ~had never heard of that before. ~My friends were doing self-publishing and then having boxes of books. They didn't know how to get sold. ~or ~or I'd heard of people sending manuscripts out to publishers or making five minute pitches at conferences, hoping a publisher would take up their book and publish it. So they called me. Because what they did was they did the market research to [00:14:00] find out what does the public want or need, what ~will they ~will they buy? And ~a, ~the book they wanted ~me, ~me to ~write was a devotional journal for grief. I'd always thought that the first book I would ~write was a devotional journal for grief. That's what they were asking me to write. And so I was astounded and my friends who had published books kept asking me, did you get paid for this? I said, yes, they paid me to do this. I didn't pay them to publish my book. So, after that came out in 2022. It's called the 52 Week Devotional Journal for Grief, and it's under my previous name, Deborah Bromstad. But the book is on Amazon and ~I'm hearing ~selling pretty well because I actually later got a call from another publisher that didn't go anywhere, but they had called, based on the success of the first book.
[00:14:45] James Marland: Wow. that goes back to ~you know ~who you are as a person. You've, ~you ~your authentic self. You've dealt with grief, you've, ~you know ~You wanna help people. And then this kind of falls in your lap and you walk [00:15:00] forward So how does this turn into creating some sort of online content?
[00:15:04] So a book, ~you know, what, ~how do you go from a book to creating online content and groups for people?
Creating Online Content and Community
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[00:15:10] Deborah Riemann: Sure. Well, the book is getting some really nice reviews and so I thought I would love to be with the people who are reading the book and work together, a community together for journaling. so I, created inscribed grief, and that's my online journal community using the book. And we go through the exercises in the book together and share them.
[00:15:39] And I also share other ideas for how to use journaling to process grief. And one of the big keys about that ~is ~is like an energy inside of us that has to be released. Sometimes we use a lot of unhelpful ways to try to release that energy, right? We may stay too busy like I did and it [00:16:00] affected my health, or~ you know, ~for some people it's using substances to try to numb the pain or just trying to avoid or outrun that pain is a way that doesn't really work. But by journaling, we actually move toward. Difficult emotions and we write about them, sharing those feelings with another person is a way to help release the pain and to reduce that pressure, that stress, that energy around grief. One of the things that many people find with grief is it's very isolating. So by participating in a community, it can feel less lonely. When you're dealing with grief. And so that is my vision for this group to be a community where people get support, they get to help process their emotions, they get to share them with someone, and that together we move forward [00:17:00] through grief.
[00:17:02] James Marland: Yeah, ~like it, ~as I'm hearing this you help people process with the slowing down, ~you know, ~and journaling, release it by sharing and then also connecting with other people. Some very needed activities. I remember. I once walked a, just a, ~like ~a mile. I used to drive. The car was broken and I had to walk from one place to the other, and just the very act of slowing down, I noticed so many new things that I'd never seen before.
[00:17:32] ~I, ~I saw the screws on the light posts and I looked over a bridge and, oh, there's some train tracks and trailers down there. I never even saw 'em before because I was going so fast. That I didn't understand my surroundings. And the act of journaling helps people slow down and see what is going on.
[00:17:52] So you help people process, release, and connect with others that are going through grief. It seems so useful, ~like ~[00:18:00] really useful for people ~who. ~Who know something is wrong and they think they should do something about it, but they just don't know who to help. ~You know, ~where can I get help? Who to talk to.
[00:18:10] Isn't that, why is grief so isolating?
Why Grief is So Isolating
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[00:18:14] Deborah Riemann: Well, a lot of times the people around us don't really know how to respond, so if you share that you've had a recent loss. Let's say I say, oh my mother died.
[00:18:25] James Marland: Mm-hmm.
[00:18:26] Deborah Riemann: Oftentimes, another person will start telling you ~this, ~their story of loss, or when their mother died years ago, and all of a sudden the attention is deflected from the person who's sharing, who really needs support and validation away to the person whose grief was a long time ago. We think this is a way to connect, but it's actually very disheartening. To the person who's grieving because they're needing the support right now?
[00:18:54] James Marland: Wow. Yeah, ~that's, ~that is ~so, that's ~so wise. When somebody takes a risk and shares [00:19:00] those feelings with you~ they're. ~They're probably not hoping you share your own story. They're probably hoping you identify and give them some support.
[00:19:09] Deborah Riemann: Well, if you think about somebody who's had a recent loss, how many times that happens.
[00:19:14] James Marland: Oh, yeah.
[00:19:15] Deborah Riemann: It. It's a lot to carry. And so I tell people the best thing you can do when somebody shares that they've had a loss is to ask them more about it.
[00:19:25] You know, how did you find out? Were you with your loved one when they died? And listen, when you give a listening ear to somebody who's grieving and don't give them the same platitudes as they've heard everywhere else, is the biggest gift that you can give them.
[00:19:44] James Marland: Very, I love that advice. 'cause I, I get, I feel awkward sometimes, you know, when people share, I'm like, oh. I know there's wrong things to say, but what are they and am I going to, ~you know, ~say those things and make it worse? [00:20:00] So you're~ one of the, ~one of the reasons for this podcast and why I am gonna release it in November ~is in, ~or early December, is the holiday season, like the holiday season brings up stuff for people, doesn't it?
Navigating Grief During the Holidays
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[00:20:12] Deborah Riemann: It sure does. especially if this is the first year or two your loss, the holidays~ If this, especially are, ~can be really treacherous. And I've experienced some of those types of holidays where I didn't make a plan, and so I let the holidays just happen to me and it was awful. And so one of the things that I've offered regularly at the holiday time is my hope for the holidays webinar. It's about creating your holiday plan when you're grieving. And so I recorded this webinar and in the show notes, we can add a link so that people can find that, but it's filled with tips and help to think about what do you want, what do you not want? How can you remember and honor your loved [00:21:00] one during the holidays? And~ and then since ~after that, I'm offering some drop in support that I'm gonna be on Zoom available to answer questions, to hear your story, and just to provide that extra layer of support when people can feel so loudly and isolated during the holidays.
[00:21:19] James Marland: Oh man, there's so many other details going around on the holiday. You know, travel meals kids might be outta school parents coming in, relatives. You might be traveling, flying, driving. who's gonna pick up the, uh, the cranberry sauce, you know, all, all that stuff.~ the you know, ~And who has time to process what's going on?
[00:21:41] But then it just, ~like, ~it's there, ~like ~it hits you and you don't know. ~What's gonna, ~what is gonna trigger it sometimes, ~like, ~it could be just sitting down for dinner and there's an empty seat there. Or it could be a conversation or, ~you know, ~the smell of stuffing and [00:22:00] it just doesn't smell like mom stuffing, ~you know, that, ~that type of stuff.
[00:22:03] I love. Just taking a few minutes and thinking about that plan. Because often we just, we go in without a plan and it's chaos. ~It's you know, ~why did I get angry? Why did I slam the mashed potatoes? Like ~ Like it's ~I'm, I'm, I'm thinking a lot about food. I think when I think about holidays, 'cause that's, for us, that was a thing.
[00:22:22] But maybe this is the first year you don't get together because the glue who hold the family together. Isn't there, or there's some sort of loss, or maybe it was a job loss or maybe it was~ you mo you know, ~you know, you moved from California, I guess~ I guess ~to Michigan. Well, ~that ~you had a first year without your connections right there.
[00:22:42] So there's all all sorts of things that can happen over the holidays and, um. a plan it, it's something I wouldn't think of, ~you know, ~like, oh, I need to have a plan to deal with this. But it is so wise to go in aware.
Making a Holiday Plan
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[00:22:57] Deborah Riemann: Yes and so [00:23:00] talking to your family members about that plan. Is what can really help make or break that. And I know for my family, when my stepmom died and she had carried so much of the making the holiday special I was still living in California, but my family in Michigan, they decided to travel and they all met somewhere else.
[00:23:18] I wasn't able to join them that year, but they weren't going to stay at home and just face that. The next year they did the thing at home, but the first year they did not. And one kind of funny thing that I can think of is that for many after I moved back to Michigan, one of the things that we always did at Thanksgiving was we made mom's green jello salad. And my sisters and I would take turns and we'd take video of it because none of us ever got it solid before we flipped it out on the plate. And it was a, just a mushy mess. And mom must have, ~you know, ~been up two nights before making that thing. 'cause she never passed that on that information onto us. But [00:24:00] after a few years. With lots of leftover jello salad, we found out that nobody really actually liked it so we stopped making it. But there's these traditions, especially around food and other things, that until you talk to your family about it, you may not know ~what kind, ~what are the traditions you wanna keep, what are the ones that you might want to change or actually even eliminate? And doing that with kind of the struggle around feelings of, am I dishonoring a loved one by. Not doing this. so those commun, those conversations are important to have.
[00:24:34] James Marland: Yeah there's the tension. You were talking about, ~you know, ~some, should we do this, shouldn't we? Are we honoring, are we not? Like, there's that tension there, but if you don't talk about it, it just hangs out. It just is sort of like there tightening things. It's in your chest, it's in your, ~you know, ~lungs, it's in your heart, but it's not it never gets released or processed or discussed.
[00:24:55] So, yeah, ~it can make, so it can make ~yeah, the conversation's awkward, ~you know, ~you know, to have it, to start talking about it, [00:25:00] but it's probably more awkward to not talk about it for, ~you know, ~however long you're with your family members. I just thought this was a wonderful idea. So generous of you to offer.
[00:25:10] Your time, your experience, and your wisdom. And this free, this value of, ~you know, ~planning and doing things to plan for grief and dealing with your emotions over the holiday, especially if it's your first time going through these things just so, so helpful and so generous. So as we wrap up, can you tell us ~like ~what you're doing now and where can people find you?
Where to Find Support and Resources
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[00:25:36] James Marland: If they wanna know more information?
[00:25:38] Deborah Riemann: Sure. Well, I, the best place for information, especially about the drop-in group is my Facebook page and that's at facebook.com stages of Grief Recovery. I also have an online group that can be linked to from there for people who are just wanting some extra support, dealing with [00:26:00] grief, we have a supportive community there that responds when people share about their loss.
[00:26:05] James Marland: if they hear this where could they find the plan, the holiday plan?
[00:26:09] Deborah Riemann: Sure. uh, I guess it would be a show notes ~'cause ~that's a little bit involved link.
[00:26:13] James Marland: So it'll be a link in the show notes. Okay.
[00:26:16] Deborah Riemann: ~yeah. ~You can find that link in the show notes about the hope for the holidays. To view the webinar. It's about half an hour with the all the tips and to learn more about the drop in support times.
[00:26:30] James Marland: That's great. That's wonderful. And that's, that's so needed, especially people who are struggling and they don't, ~you know, ~they're not sure if they can talk to their family and they don't know what to do. It's just a great value resource for pe for people to help them process their grief. Thank you, Debra.
[00:26:45] Deborah Riemann: Thanks James. Good to be here with you.
Closing Thoughts
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[00:26:48] James Marland: All right. Well, Debra, thank thanks so much for being a part of the show. And listeners, ~you know, ~at some point you're gonna need, you're gonna need this, like at some point something's gonna [00:27:00] happen~ like ~It's gonna be hard and it's gonna be a loss. So I encourage you to take advantage of the resources offered here, and you remember, you don't have to be alone.
[00:27:11] People can help you with your grief during the holidays. All right, this is uh, scaling Therapy practice. Thanks so much for listening. We'll see you next time~ and then I will stop.~
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